Interview No. 177

Interview By: @The-Great-One

Today's guest is an underrated gem here on Newgrounds. From his inspirations from the cirque with Quick Playtime. To his outspoken words in Black Lives Matter. His range is beyond anything imaginable here on Newgrounds and his knowledge of music is quite different than others we have had the fortune of speaking with. It is with great pleasure that I welcome, @ZipZipper.

Q: How did you find Newgrounds and why did you join?

A: I’d love to think many Millennials could trace some weird animation they once saw when they were 11 back to the notorious NG. It’s essentially how I found the website. If I had to specify, the Salad Fingers series from the illustrious phalanges of David Firth (@Doki) kept me coming back. I had a couple friends in high-school that would show me all the raunchy and strange content you had no choice but to at least smile at. And although I’d known about the site for years, it wasn’t until I started ZipZipper that I realized Newgrounds hosted musicians. So I joined just to share my content with others, and ended up getting a lot more than I thought. Mostly good stuff. I promise.

Q: You have stated that circus music, namely Cirque Du Soleil, is an influence in your own music. One in particular is the song entitled Jeux d'Enfants by Rene Dupere. There are many loves in this song that you equate to. It is ultimately a song that you listen to when you're feeling overwhelmed and confused. How did you become interested in circus music? How did it bring you to this piece?

A: Music never clicked with me until I heard Yann Tiersen’s soundtrack to the film Amélie (https://youtube.com/watch?v=AA4deEZjnBA). It’s brimming with quirk and playfulness; un jeux d’enfants à propos de la vie. The instrumentation ranges from solo accordion to full orchestra. It represents the spectrum of joy you can gather in the details and coincidences that happen every day if you care to pay attention, which is one of the main themes of the movie. I think it was through the quintessential French sound of valse-musette, or waltzing accordion music, that I took interest in Cirque du Soleil. I believe lots of people would associate that sound with a street performance circus, so that’s why I define circus music as such. My parents also noticed my interest and took me to see my first Cirque show, Quidam, when I was around 9 years old. That surreal experience hooked me even more, and I still keep an eye and two ears out for their discography to this day. But I dunno...I can’t coherently describe how the oom-pah-pah gets me every time. It’s a punchline that never gets old to me, and that piece Jeux d’Enfants embodies the concept perfectly.

Q: The hardest part about making music for you, you have this to say...

"It all seems such a blur to me that I can't really point out the hardest part. I think creating something new is always difficult because the inspiration is a big bang and then you have to play the part of God by organizing the stupendous disorder."

Could you elaborate on this point? With the song You Wanna Kill? as an example?

A: You tryin’ to kill me with homework prompts? Funny thing about that song is that it was at a time I knew nothing about jazz. But I always loved the cool cat sound of a walking baseline and piano sting chords. So in terms of that quote, that was the inspiration. But then, with no foundational knowledge of what to do with that sudden bang, I had to provide structure to the chaos, and the result was that tune.

This’s actually a great example of toughing out the music making process, especially when you have the desire to create. Because if you really wanna kill, you’ll finish the job. Otherwise, it’s not meant for you. I have A LOT more know-how about jazz styling, so listening to that song again is cringe. But y’know what? I think the actual hardest part about making music, or acting on one’s creativity at all, is finalizing and revealing the ultimate result. And that’s why I still have some of my old content available on here, to provide reminders that I’m brave enough to try.

Q: There are two different points when discussing music. The first one I want to talk about is music theory. When Phonometrologist was here he talked in great deal about music theory and its importance. You two would talk about this subject in detail on the forums using Philip Glass as an example. You tend to take a different approach to music theory than he does. How would you describe music theory? What importance can be placed on it? Can we ascertain a hard definition of music with or without it?

A: Laugh OUT loud. I forget I’ve taken rigorous stances on the importance of music theory, and I believe Phonometrologist (@Phonometrologist) places importance on emotionality and overall humanity more so? This answer will end evenly, but I’ll extrapolate on my side first.

I’m personally tired of the ‘yeah bruh feelings are dope' stance because it’s a no-brainer that we all have feelings, except for a statistical few. And I’ve typically found that guys swooning over vague truths every day can’t clean a table or fold a shirt at the same time. We can do better than the minimum requirements. And music theory provides us with the history of minimum requirements so that we can actually do better. Otherwise, you’re gonna embarrass yourself when your magnum opus is accused of being some renaissance composer’s symphony no. 8 out of 8,000 that they wrote before puberty. So theory is important if you want to take music seriously. It definitely doesn’t mean you have to analyze the purpose of every passing tone in every Buxtehude cantata while filling out a twelve-tone matrix, but I highly suggest taking an intro class because the formal environment itself will displace the studious from the stupid.

This leads me to the other side of the coin and the last question of your question. You can ascertain a hard definition of music with AND without theory. It just depends on your mood, or your blood sugar. When I started formally studying music at school, I found immense purpose with the calculated rules of the baroque period, the likes of Bach and Mozart. That required a lot of music theory. Then after I graduated, I studied Francis Poulenc on my own. He was a 20th century composer that incorporated some of those rules with a fanciful, threatening style that’s extremely unique. He’s now one of my biggest musical influences and his music tapped into my theory wellspring while also revealing to me what about music sparks my own emotions. Now I’m a more balanced artistic identity since going through several years of exploring both sides. The journey isn’t quite over, but I would have never gotten to this level of comfort without formal education, and my Associate of Arts isn’t even so taxing of an investment. Don’t do drugs, you stupid kids. You’ll forget who you are faster. Save those tears for after school. Whether it’s a classroom or a job, active learning can teach you how to utilize those tears effectively instead of wasting them on unsustainable tissue.

Q: The second point on discussing music is composition vs. production. The layman may be confused with these terms, and rightfully so with musicians debating on where they sit in terms of creating and listening. Could you break down these terms and how much weight you put to them? Perhaps use Jeux d'Enfants as an example?

A: Oh? More homework? Composition is the bare structure of a piece. What’s the speed of it? How long is it gonna take? How many instruments are there? What instruments are there? You gonna paint freely or use a coloring book? It’s like the composition of a recipe. You could stick to a certain stir fry or throw some rice in a pan and fold in some miscellany as you go.

Production is how you’re going to present that stir fry to your guests. You could all eat it out the pan while squatting on the floor like savages, or garnish it with celery on your finest chinaware in a dining room you can’t afford. Different audiences expect different presentations, but they all showed up for you to cook something so they’re probably gonna eat it either way.

Music production, to me, is a relatively new concept with the advent of the information age making music extremely accessible. In the old days, music production was basically the acoustics of the listening space, the position of the players, and the tuning of the instruments. I suppose you could add instrumentation as a factor, but that was basically it. For Jeux d’Enfants, that would be easy to follow in real life. But nowadays, you got speakers and headphones to worry about since music consumption is primarily through those outputs. For Jeux d’Enfants, they had to think heavily about the volume and frequency balance between all the performers. They ultimately chose a very balanced approach, but a manager could’ve stepped in and said nOT eNuFF tRiAnGLe! and added a triangle recorded through a walkie talkie blaring louder than the rest of the mix. That’s a production choice. Someone studying the effectiveness of walkie-talkies might like that production better. I might like it because I like being attacked by music.

But at the end of the day, I personally put more emphasis on compositional quality because melodic instrumental music engages me most. People more interested in pop or electronic music will need to have more emphasis on production quality because there’s a high standard, thanks to technology. Like how knowledge and feelings are one bread knot in the foundation of music, composition and production run a similar dual stream, the difference being the latter two gained prevalence only recently and are largely dependent on how you want your music to be perceived.

Q: At one point you ventured out to Los Angeles. Why Los Angeles?

A: Laziness. Clearly, there are many other routes I could’ve taken to properly get to the teenage dream of being a revered blockbuster composer, but instead I decided to go straight to the source because it’s about who you know not what you don’t know, right? The answer is an astute yes. My approach was old-fashioned and I largely ignored the disadvantage of my severe introversion and my lack of knowing any peers in the industry already.

Q: Things did not go well for you out in LA. You wrote about it in your article Giving Up So Soon. This was surprising to me seeing how your past self spoke about music.

"You have to be comfortable with your own way of doing things. Don't aspire to be just as good as your idols, because a big part of what makes them good is unique to them. Ergo, you literally won't ever be as good as them because you will never be them. Learn from them but don't craft yourself on who they are. Craft yourself on who you are. My personal view on music is that nothing is perfect anyways because that definition is so loose within the art culture in general. What's intolerable to you can be golden to someone else, kind of like how you said you did with writing in a different genre. Explore that, I suppose. Don't hype over the definitions that exist and instead formulate your own."

What happened between those six years that changed your outlook? What lessons did you take from Los Angeles? How are you feeling nowadays?

A: Nothing has changed about that outlook. I definitely shaped my musical identity to a strong level of self-confidence before I went to LA to try and start my own shelf on the wall of trophies. But, many other factors I largely disregarded made it more difficult for me personally, and I think there was bad timing in several regards. I guess I should’ve eaten my own words in that quote when it came to my impatience. But can you wholly blame me after almost 10 years of work in music? The ironic icing on that cake is in the advice I was given out there.

So here we go…

My excuse for physically relocating was to attend UCLA Extension in Film Scoring. Their extension school is for all their certificate programs. And here’s some of my own advice: when you look at certificate programs in other renowned schools, check what the actual university is best known for. Then, remember to pay attention in class! These certificates, especially those in creative fields, don’t mean much more than what you care to take away, whether it’s information or connections. I’m glad I had the maturity to understand this when going into the program because I almost allowed my apathy to plunge me through a scam school deeper in the heart of Hollywood not that long before. This is why the first class I took was in music business, and taking it there was even more impactful because my teacher knew lots of people relevant in the industry that he invited as guest speakers. Now here’s the sick irony:

My biggest takeaway? I was told many times that it takes approximately 10 years of actually doing work and promotion for others in the industry as an uncredited drone before someone eventually thinks ‘wait a minute…who was that uncredited drone again?’ and you might start getting work of your own. And once you’ve achieved that, you’re flooded with nearly impossible deadlines and have to orchestrate complex scores that directors with not a musical muscle in their body must approve of. This isn’t unique to the music hemisphere. It’s just the reality of today’s art world that I couldn’t fully accept until I tried it myself. I suppose I overestimated the value of my catalogue and underestimated the power of money.

Despite expecting these answers, I was still incredibly hurt. I’ve read through thousands of harsh criticisms online and learned to get over it, but I finally heard one directed at me in the classroom and was devastated. And when I told people close to me how alone and hurt I felt, some of their response was that I wasn’t trying hard enough. I became the most depressed I’ve ever been and discussed returning back to my hometown to heal. And once I did, COVID began. It’s truly incredible timing how everything has played out for me so far.

How am I feeling nowadays? Well for the past two years I’ve had such a high frequency of suicidal thoughts that I’ve accepted them as normal. Luckily for y’all, I’m so mentally lost and exhausted from all that experience that I don’t have the energy to formulate anything concrete. I’m also perversely adept at dissociating with myself, scared of doing it myself, and therefore would rather coast along living for the time being. So the only warning I have is that I can see myself suddenly acting on this end-it energy if a significant trigger arises; a first-time moment, like listening to harsh criticism for the first time in real life and then immediately being told by my friends that I’m a wimp. Sorry not sorry. That’s my own harsh truth that only I have the power to wrestle with.

Q: You once had an interest in attending Julliard. What made you not go? Have you thought about changing your mind?

A: Laziness. And discouragement by how much more passionate and effective true music lovers are. I actually don’t like music. It makes so much noise! It’s so annoying! The space I’d take up in a prestigious school is better spent on someone who vibes with their emotions bruh. And in all seriousness, I’ll likely go back to school, but probably not in music. And most definitely not in music to that level of focus. In fact, it’s the opposite; I wanna get better at Sign Language.

Q: What can you tell us about the Washington Metropolitan Gamer Symphony Orchestra?

A: Try saying that name 5x fast. Anyways, these people…they give me hope. The WMGSO is a nonprofit organization of amateur and professional musicians, located around the Maryland, Virginia, Washington D.C. area, that perform arrangements of VGM, usually written by members. I’m one of the arrangers of the group, as well as a vocalist and piano accompanist. The org tries to hold full orchestra performances biannually at local venues, which incidentally included MAGFest in 2018. We’ve also officially released an album and are in the works of creating a second one. WMGSO simply being an alignment of casual musicians with an aggregate of opportunities to write and perform has, and continues to be, an immense help with cultivating myself as a musician.

When I was damaged by my Hollywood experience, Hex-perience if you will, it was the GSO that gave me hope in not throwing away my involvement in music forever. Unfortunately, COVID appeared, but I’m still hanging on with them and we are trying to safely return to a state of regular events soon. Don’t fret, there’s other GSOs out there. I got a chance to see a performance of the one at UCLA actually. If you like video-game music, or just want a safe space to perform and practice in real life but don’t feel like you have much expertise, I very much suggest finding one. Or starting one! 

Q: The first song you have here on Newgrounds is entitled Lugubrious. It means "looking or sounding sad and dismal". Would you care to elaborate more on this? Looking back on your first submission to where you are now, what are your takeaways?

A: Fun fact: I used to have my entire backlog of work hosted on a site that is now unfortunately defunct (http://icompositions.com). That track was one of the newest ones I had at the time I started the NG account. There also used to be another username on that other site that I went by before ZipZipper… 

But anyways, me elaborating…that title is sometimes what I look for in music. I like finding sadness or stories that invoke it, but I think my judgement on what characterizes art as such is different from most people, which is why I found some out-of-the-way synonym for sadness. In a similar way, that’s the descriptor I’d use when I think about my music back then compared to my music now. Ironically, my overall demeanor both in my sound and my personality has shifted from that of being lugubrious to being facetiously comedic. But, I also think most of my listeners stick with what I churned out during my emo phases. And now that my style is much more peppy and complex…I don’t have as much consistent or influenced feedback, which saddens me because I feel much more like myself with this developed sound. Oh well; c’est la vie. I have taken note of this and believe my next chapter involves learning how to incorporate the simplicity and empathy of when I began music.

Q: The first song I ever heard by you was when I was gathering songs for The Tank Tribune's Phonograph, called Quick Playtime. I fell head over heels for this song. I love the accordion waltz in it. I can certainly see your inspirations in it.

A: It’s the simplicity of songs I’ve done like this that I think I need to punch in more. I guess I should do more circus music! I just wish I wasn’t so sapped of energy from being an adult. 

Q: Jazza, Jabun, Troisnyx, MistyEntertainment, JohnnyGuy, Hania, and Cayler, are all singers that have joined us on The Interviewer. You are added to this list. When going over your works I have come across songs where you have lent your vocals, one being Make A Scene. At what age did you start singing? Using Make A Scene as an example, how do you prepare for a song where you have to sing or lyrics are to be incorporate?

A: Another homework prompt?! My earliest recollection of singing was in middle-school choir, so I was in my early teens. When I got my first keyboard around the beginning of high-school, I started writing my own short indie songs, since another one of my biggest musical influences is the immensely versatile Imogen Heap. Sometimes I’d take that keyboard to a nearby cafe for open mic nights and sing. But it wasn’t until many years later that I got whipped into much better singing shape, when I officially started majoring in music.

Not only did singing classical repertoire at school help me unlock my voice to its fullest potential, but I also learned to sing overtones around that time, which helped me a lot with my tuning and breathing. One of my hugely supportive friends that I met in school runs a different nonprofit group, Harmonic Introductions, that specializes in this technique; the ability to sing at least two pitches at once. We’re actually one of the only singing groups in the U.S. that exclusively does this. If you wanna have meditative droning at your next birthday party, I can hook you up.

So how do I prepare for a song that includes my voice? Having all that previous practice in various disciplines is the best preparation, and funnily enough I didn’t have any of that formal training before recording Make A Scene. I also try to sing a little bit regularly, whether that’s along with Imogen Heap in my car or overtone-ing in the elevator at work and scaring the pedestrian people trapped with me. Of course there’s the other normal stuff to do right before singing, like warming up, hydrating, taking breaks, but those are easy. The hard part is practicing. And school forces you to do that. Don’t do drugs, you stupid kids. They can irreversibly damage your voice.

Q: My absolute favorite by you is without a question Naptime Near The Forest Floor. It was made for a competition where the challenge was percussive instruments only with a jungle theme. You took your own turn on it though. What can you tell us about the competition and how the song evolved into the finished product?

A: Oh I loved the NG Music Triathlon! I think it’s the most complex music contest NG has ever held. There was a general theme and a certain limitation with each of the three rounds, and users involved voted on each track anonymously. It was a great challenge! When I went into that round, I assumed most others were gonna strictly focus on drums, which ended up being true of the entry pool. I, however, focused on vibes and string chops, making my entry unique in that it made the most use of melody. So much so that I originally had to make the strings entirely plucks and remove the main vocal line and animal sound effects you hear in it. But once that round had ended, I posted the song as I intended, which is definitely cooler. I’m glad you like that track! It’s also one of my faves.

Q: Black Lives Matter. You have spoken about the response and backlash the song has gotten. I'm not here to talk about your stance or beliefs in Black Lives Matter. It's not often songs for protests or movements are seen on Newgrounds. What made you want to take your stance and transfer it to song?

A: It’s gonna be very difficult not to dip into my beliefs with that question posed, but I will try my best. A grotesque amount of warnings were given before 2020, but the year 2020 has proven that we don’t have the collective maturity to keep filing our serious debts, our fears, and our prospective happiness in a cabinet for later review. It became a humongous fire hazard and it exploded. I come from one of the most ethnically diverse counties in the whole country, and after Los Angeles…I returned to it. One of my most incredible influences and closest friends is a self-made Black man that continues to experience the subtle problems this country unconditionally imposes on him with lasting effects. What made me take a stance was frustration…because the answer seems so obvious to me:

We all need to seriously take a stance and wear our feelings on our shoulders. We all need to take responsibility for ourselves individually and stop relying on fate to define our outcomes.

There has to be way more honest and open communication with each other. Music and entertainment are great forms of that because it’s actually through those outlets that our brains became twisted with rotten cultural ideas. And we can untwist them the same way…

If anything, as an adopted person, America is all that I’m familiar with. Might as well participate in its problems to some capacity. The social ones definitely have importance across the world as well, so I ask anyone reading this: are you participating? 

Q: You have answered this question in the past. With everything you have seen, heard, and experienced I must know. What is in your opinion, the definition of music?

A: Either the result of boredom or the result of fury. Music is the epitome of madness because it can cause people to willingly sit at a desk for 15 hours without eating or peeing. Think that’s crazy? Well sometimes it makes people so infatuated with someone else that they try killing them. Other times, a musician will accidentally let loose a weird fart and immediately be gifted $100,000. Why hasn’t music been outlawed?!

Q: What can we expect from ZipZipper in the future?

A: I’m not sure…

What ZipZipper wants is to get back to being involved with online music communities, especially Newgrounds. But, the internet’s getting too fast and hip for grandma Zipper not to dangerously wobble around with his walker, so she may very well keep to himself in the real world. Currently, I’m having trouble saving money with a semi-management job at a popular retail chain you’ve probably shopped at called ______. I’ve been thinking about a potential company program that funds college education to try moving up the corporate ladder a bit. I also mentioned I like Sign Language and might invest in becoming an interpreter. But no matter what I do, I’ll never completely stop making music…and sharing it eventually. 

ZipZipper I interviewed back in July so this interview is quite late, that's on me though. I happened to come across his music just browsing the Audio Portal. Wanted to know more and read he was giving up music. That just blew my mind and I wanted to know more about his story. I'm thankful that he was willing to share his story and his craft with us here today. Any aspiring musicians here on Newgrounds should take note of his story. Some helpful advice, lessons, and a bit of humor can be ascertained from here. I can't say for certain if ZipZipper will be one of the world's greatest composers, but I know for a fact he will be one of the music industry's greatest teachers.

The Interviewer is a part of Dohn's Desk Productions

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