Cyberdevil 2020-10-15 18:41:22

@Jabun Curious how big an audience you might've had during those early pub runs? And how nervous you were starting out there, or have you always felt somewhat comfortable performing? Also wonder if maybe I've asked this earlier, seems to ring some distant bell...

This really dove into the production aspect too. :) And the more business-oriented side. Fascinating read there. Would've been interesting with a delve into the pros of contracts, and those of your earlier experiences that aspiring producers/entrepreneurs might learn before they make the same ones, but maybe that might be mentioned later on too...

Regarding our first meeting it seems you remember this better than I do at this point! I believe I was asked the same thing in my interview but had no proper recollection, memorable moments expand quite a bit since though. :) Could it have been the One Wish Remix track you listened to first? I do remember things suddenly picked up around that time. I hadn't really been working with anyone before, at least not with audio, but stumbled upon a beat by Faizyr (back then Ajiman if I remember the name right) that really resonated with me, for some reason decided to record to it aaand what a butterfly effect it's been! It's pretty cool how even the most seemingly minuscule whims or decisions really have the power to push open the heaviest doors.

I am finally reading this now, yes! XD Thank you very much for the surplus praise, and likewise! Finna need to count those emails some day, but maybe more wordcount total, assumably pretty crazy...

Jabun 2020-10-16 07:08:57

@Cyberdevil Hmmm... It was a pub’s worth so maybe a few dozen average, with about half being active listeners? I’m always nervous before gigs/performing, but I’m generally fine after I start; it’s just the pre-show anxiety, unless I make a major mistake, then that can throw me, but usually I’m quick to recover.

Ah glad you enjoyed it :) I find with contracts, it’s a good way to get everything in writing before something starts just to make sure everyone’s on the same page and there are no unexpected surprises/expectations. It also gives the terms of use clearly and hopefully acts as a deterrent to people who intend to take advantage before they get the chance to. Always a red flag when people refuse to do something under contract!

Looking back at my likes list, I think it must’ve been that One Wish Remix that I heard first! Still loving the vibes, and it looks like that’s about when I first messaged you (May 2013), though I can’t seem to find what makes sense as that first message or even a comment on the track... hmmm... Nice butterfly effect there indeed! True that too about the all the small things opening doors! I remember putting out a track which was really just to test my new microphone on acoustic guitar and that led me to meet World Beyond Soundtracks! Lots of music and more which came out of that meeting :D

No worries at all :D All deserved! Oof that’ll be a HUGE wordcount I’m sure... Even bigger including the forum replies and NG messages! I wonder if it’s hit the big 1 million yet? XD

Cyberdevil 2020-10-16 07:40:52

@Jabun Pretty populated a pub then! Wouldn't be sure what to expect there, never spent time in one myself. From an outside point of view here it seems they're often almost entirely empty or almost unhealthily (especially now) packed... good to know.

For sure. Was maybe thinking more so in the use of up-front payment below btw, my bad, contracts are of course a different topic entirely. Slightly related in those payment terms being stipulated beforehand too if something does go awry.

Ah you're digging through the PM archive too! Cool to have a log of sorts like that. Hopefully they'll add in some search or filter functionality too, would make it a whole lot easier to go back to any one specific point in time or conversation. Ah nice! :D A track that's still up somewhere? YT?

Hmmm it's gotta be right? :) Remember the individual word counts from earlier being in the thousands, though then again maaaybe those were character counts...

Jabun 2020-10-19 06:19:12

@Cyberdevil Reasonably :) Your sentiments with regards pubs being empty or super full are about right too XD The latter’s definitely not great at the moment...

Ah! So that’s another thing. I often do 50% payment up front, 50% on delivery thing for jobs, so I’ll also put a clause in the contract protecting the customer from ME potentially running off with their down-payment. The contract not only is there to protect me and deter dishonest clients, but also to give peace of mind to clients so that they have in writing something to hold against me if I’m dishonest. It’s a way of forging the most basic mutual trust, so that neither of us feels our time or money is likely to be wasted and we’re both comfortable to engage in the transactions and exchange of services.

Trying to XD Searching would definitely make things easier! Indeed, the track WB found me on is called “Mayhem Market” (should be from 2013 in my NG profile). Enjoy!

I’m positive it was in the thousands of words! Tens of thousands for characters XD A lot of stuff there!

Cyberdevil 2020-10-19 09:50:32

@Jabun Have you by any chance frequented any pubs recently? Maybe they're currently all closed though?

Well said/planned/set up. As long as you have a prior showcase to spark up that initial trust there doesn't seem like there's any downside to that process either, only those with shady intentions would be wary of signing, though still a small chance clients will potentially run away with finished work on just half the payment if they have it delivered first...

Ah cool, shall check it out!

Potentially millions indeed then. :) Indeed!

Jabun 2020-10-20 05:25:11

@Cyberdevil Heck no XD Seems like an awful idea to go out to those at the moment, though many still look busy when I’ve walked past... They are still open for all but the most locked down places (my area’s on tier 2 out of 3 of lockdown, with rumours of moving to 3 soon...), but I think there’s a 10pm curfew for pubs and restaurants at the moment everywhere. They’ll be closed properly if we move to lockdown tier 3...

Yup! Good to build up a portfolio with testimonies, project credits and demo reels to help spark people’s interest too :) So to avoid those who may run off with the work after only partial payment, I’ve written a 2 part contract where each payment activates the next part. First payment commits me to finish the work as described, but as I’ve created the final recording, I still have technical ownership of the physical recording when finished, even though I don’t own the contained intellectual property. The 2nd and final payment activates the 2nd part of the contract and licence which transfers ownership of my finished recording to the client. You only have free rights for a recording if you own the ownership for the intellectual property AND the physical recording, so they can only technically use it if they own both (which they will upon full payment), while I can’t ever legally do anything with it on my end as I’ll never own the intellectual copyright. Again, this is there to put the client at ease as well as myself and build that trust. They’re not handing me music I’m going to pirate and profit off, and I’m not handing them finished files I’m not going to be paid for. I’m not sure how much of it would hold up in court legally if people did run off with things, but it at least makes a basis for a compelling case in contracted writing, and acts as a deterrent at the very least :)

*And more nods*!

Cyberdevil 2020-10-20 07:08:13

@Jabun Just had to ask! XD It seems like such a big part of the culture you know, you never know, maybe it's just one of those habits you go against all possible safety precautions to keep up with... ah alright, not so good for business owners moving to tier 3 then, but probably good for overall health if people really are hanging out like usual still...

For sure, both to vouch for trust and quality. :) Ah that's clever... did you have that in place already during the HipHopPunk phase? Or maybe wasn't applicable/necessary there? Don't remember being a two part thing... have you ever had someone drop out regardless though? Or attempt to run away with the content even without ownership? I imagine even with the law on your side it might be costly to really take legal action; sort things out if such a thing happens. But hopefully a good enough failsafe that it never does/you get reputable clients anyway. Plus still that initial payment at least if such things do happen...

Jabun 2020-10-21 05:44:07

@Cyberdevil I do think the Brits as the whole have an unhealthy drinking culture (IMO) and indeed many people go despite the dangers. Definitely not good for business owners being forced to shut down though. Lots of political stuff going on around these parts right now because of that... Tensions uncomfortably high at the moment...

Not really applicable for our HipHopPunk contract as we were both creating and it was royalty based rather than a one-off payment and there’s no transfer of ownership to include. I still keep track of the spreadsheets though you’ll be pleased to know :) Indeed I’ve had people do runners before, but while infuriating, most were too small a job for it to be cost effective to take legal action... The bigger runners I was stupid enough to do out of contract... should have seen the red flags earlier! Indeed initial payments are a good way to make sure time wasn’t completely wasted :) Lessons learned the hard way for sure!

Cyberdevil 2020-10-21 10:13:23

@Jabun Mmm, though I wonder if it's so different between countries, maybe it's just more so that y'all have a culture of getting together more when you do drink (which would make said drinking maybe a bit healthier in that regard - though of course also encourage even more drinking which then wouldn't). Here people drink in the comfort of their homes though. Not all of course but probably an unhealthy number. Yeah, hope they don't reach another boiling point...

Right right, makes sense, though did you have the two-part contracts ready at that point in time too? How long have you been using the current process? That does please me to know, TY! :) And bummer about the big ones, I suppose the bigger the run the better they'd be at conning too...

Jabun 2020-10-22 05:16:06

@Cyberdevil Couldn’t say for sure, but maybe? We’ll have to see how it all goes...

I’m pretty sure I did, at least for mastering work. I don’t think the contract structure has changed too much since I started mastering so... maybe since 2013-15? Yeah... partially my fault too... A lesson learned not to get too excited about a project to dive in recklessly. Always do things under contract if there’s money involved (unless it’s a one off payment small job and I REALLY know the person well).

Cyberdevil 2020-10-22 08:43:04

@Jabun Ten year anniversary on useful contract structure coming up soon then... nice. :) Solid advice too, really shouldn't ever go without unless the breach of trust would be worse than the loss of money, or if you're in such a place the money's not so important nor so big that it merits that extra contract communication time...

Feels like it's easier to make exceptions for people you meet in real life too, but maybe all the more important not to. My only real bad experience with this type of stuff was a hosting/design thing for an earlier friend of my brothers - friend no longer. Paid for hosting in advance that I didn't get paid back for, nor the design delivery itself, but I don't think she managed to get the design either so... that's the one lesson that always comes to mind now. No exceptions unless I'm alright with potentially not getting paid after all; satisfied with just having the work to show for it. And never any personal financial investments on their behalf in advance. Cost in time's the only potential wiggle room.

Jabun 2020-10-22 11:08:11

@Cyberdevil Still a few years before that, but yeah :) +1 to the sentiments!

Yeah... as life experience has told you too, some people will still let you down even without distance or internet anonymity (sounds like a sucky situation on your end btw... sorry to hear that). Always gotta keep your wits about you when making deals and promises for sure! +1 again to the reflective sentiments!

Cyberdevil 2020-10-22 11:19:49

@Jabun Just wait though, in a matter of just a few years a few years finna have flown by! ;)

Thanks, though it's all good now, moderate amounts of such aggravation carries some good with it in the end. :) Seems you only really learn things permanently if you learn them the hard way! Indeed!

Jabun 2020-10-23 06:01:03

@Cyberdevil Hehe XD Too true!

Good to hear as well, and +1 to the sentiments! All the best!